Saturday, January 09, 2010

Very Useful Discussion - Whether to invest in Bahria Town or NOT?

Dear All;

I need the views/suggestions of all respectable readers of this forum.

I have a 10M plot in Sector B, Bahria town. I am planning to start construction of my house in 2-3 months time. Before doing that,i want to find out if there are any risks/hurdles/surprises involved in constructing the house. For example, the biggest concern i have come to know is that Bahria town is owned by a single owner/family and if something goes wrong against him by any coming government, what would be the future???. If Bahria/Malik Riaz goes down bcoz of his problems with any government and government takes over Bahria,then
1. what would happen to the people living in BT (quality of services)
2. How would the sale/purchase of properties go in the area.

I am just sharing the worst case scenario keeping in view the single man ownership and .

I personally have nothing against Bahria or Malik Riaz but i have to calculate the risk on my hard earned investment.

Best regards to all....Ahmad Raza

Ashraf replied on Thursday, January 7, 2010 07:33 PM PST

Dear Raza,

I am overseas returned and saved some money. So still thinking to purchase plot in
BT, Lhr but could not decide yet. Although the development of BT is good but it is also correct that there is fear being single hand ownership of this project which refrain me to away from it. There is also problem that there is no good standard society except DHA which is very high.

Today I asked one property dealer that I need 8 M com. plot in any good soceity near Thokar. He recommended me only Valencia with price of 1 crore 60 lacs in 150 road and 85 on 80' road.

I asked that I am interested in Bahria Town - C, but he mentioned that same thing that never purchase in BT as it is only one man show and secondly it is very far from the city, so nobody will go there to purchase. I replied that many property dealers are recommending to get com. plots in sector C which is good investment.
He denied from that fact and said those dealers are not giving sincere advice while I always give sincere advice to my all customers. So he told me do not consult with many dealers otherwise you will be confused. He mentioned those dealers are recommending BT because they have their own and relatives plots to sell.

Can the experts and especially having the solid information of BT could highlight on this issue which would be very informative for others as well.

Thanks and regards

Azad K replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 01:45 AM PST

I remember someone saying the same thing to me that it is a one man band a few years ago, and my reaction was that great works are not created by committees but by strong individuals. I would rather have a good product controlled by one person than a mediocre product controlled by a committee. Having said that the courts in
Pakistan should act as a check and balance against strong individuals and safeguard the public interest.

Ahmad Raza replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 10:29 AM PST

Dear Ashraf/Azad Sb,

Thanks for your comments.
I agree with Azad Sb, that strong individuals creat great works but our history tells us that in a bad time with bad people in governance, it is easy to victimize strong individuals rather than committees.

Ashraf Sb: There are a lot of people talking against
BT. Main problems which are discussed are (i) distance from the city centre (ii) single man ownership (iii) BT history of changing the location of plots and whole maps and disappointing the plot owners. I was told that they moved the plots on the front/main roads to the back and from back to front leaving people helpless (these plots were without possession, i think) (iv) BT doing some irregularities in the past .i.e. selling much more plots in sector C than the land they had and now they are moving people in Bahria orchard. People are left with no choice other than to accept plots in orchard or get money back (i dont know at what conditions/deductions and without any profit for the time BT used this money).

But i personally believe that if u have 2 cars at home,you buy a plot in sector B with possession, build home and live there,NO PROBLEMS. There are a lot of good things about BT too for example their security, maintenance, cleanliness etc which you dont find anywhere else in lahore (may be DHA). You should look at what you pay and what you get(im talking low price and there is always a give and take if you wanna save money).

My question is still not answered in this forum which is:

What happens to BT management/records and sale/purchase of property in case Malik Riaz goes down or enters into a conflict with any government???

Now, I invite (with hope) the Guru's of property here that include Mr. CMY and Mr. Hussain Kaisrani to put some light on my question(s). I will really appreciate that. I am a big fan of their comments.

Best regards to all....Ahmad raza

Azad K replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 03:41 PM PST

If you have a plot on the ground then it does not matter what happens to Riaz Malik as nobody can take the plot away from you. If you don't have a plot on the ground then they can say that they don't have enough land or that there is no money to complete development. However people like Mr Malik rise to the top with the support of all political forces and will remain in everyones good books, whoever comes to power that is my personal view. The bigger
Bahria Town becomes and the more people that work for it and the more the people live there the difficult it becomes for anyone to harm Bahria.

Hussain Kaisrani replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 06:17 PM PST

Ahmad Raza Sahib,
Thanks for your remarks about me. I am only a student of property related matters and learnt every thing from this site, its members and its organizers.
Your questions are very much related to future and my knowledge about future is very limited so I avoid commenting about these matters.
For being on safe side one can adopt registry process. I personally do not think that any serious problem may occur to
Bahria Town existing plots and houses as every houses is approved from Govt. authorities like TMA etc. Besides this Bahria Town has its members in all sphere of life. Thousands of resident will be able to manage the society if Malik Riaz Sahib has not yet made any system for running it properly after his death.

Hussain Kaisrani replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 06:19 PM PST

I missed to read Azad K Sahib's views before posting my comments. He has written more nicely what I wanted to say. Thanks Sir. People like him may be called GURU's of property.

abce replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 08:01 PM PST

Property dealers are like Animals, they are the gandi nali kut-as. Ashraf sahib please don't base where to invest your hard earned life savings on the views on these kut-as.

Ashraf replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 10:36 PM PST

Dear Azad/ Hussain Kaisrani,

Thanks for your comments. As per you I understood that there is no problem in
BT and anybody can go for it. The reason you gave that individuals are more doing than the committees. But no reply has been received so far from any expert saying that BT has been official approved by the LDA and it will be managed the same way as today after Malik Riaz and who will be responsible in his place. Does that man has the same capabilities to handle this project?. Many societies are not approved by LDA but every society is claiming that it is approved.

The same way as many plaza owners said that their project has been approved by LDA and lot of people invested their money. The result can be seen today. They are also constructed by the powerful individuals but they are now in big problem and crying. So it is very difficult to get the information that how future projects would be handled by an individual or committee.

The question was aksed from the experts that is investment in BT is safe, secure and risk free (especially sector C for residential and commercial purpose). This is in question to my statement above where one property dealer nearby Wapda Town asked not to invest in Bahria Town. So the other experts should comment on it with the solid details if to invest, on what grounds and if not then on what grounds?. The distance from the city is not the matter but many people need to get the sincere advice based on that they could decide. The purpose to write on this form is just to get the maximum benefit of others experience. So please always help others by giving them the best suggestions.

Saqib replied on Friday, January 8, 2010 10:57 PM PST

Mr. Raza,

I like your commitment and attitude for research. You have to weigh the alternate options. Assume the answer to all of your questions is not positive. Pick up the option which you feel is better than
Bahria or satisfies your question. I do not know which country you are in but if USA's economy can go into doldrums despite the best intellectual capital available with them and Dubai real estate can have all the problems, Largest banks in USA can get bankrupt, I do not really know what kind of guarantees you are looking for. Evaluate what you know and what you can reasonably foresee and put the trust in Allah.
you can foresee. And trust in Allah.

Ahmad Raza replied on Saturday, January 9, 2010 01:14 AM PST

Dear all,

At first, i would like to thank Mr.
Hussain kaisrani for writing a response and Mr. Azad for his valuable comments.

I know a lot of qualities in BT, thats why i bought a plot there and am planning to build my house. Saqib Sb, I am not looking for any guarantees. What i am trying to do is to evaluate the worst case scenarios, which may be created after Malik Riaz (i.e. his death, going to jail, fighting between his daughters and son for the ownership of property). I really wish and pray that nothing like this ever happen to BT, Malik Riaz or his family. I know they have done a lot of hardwork and efforts to reach where they are today.

I am concluding on following points here.

1. Mr. Hussain Kaisrani said that the houses are being built after approval from TMA which means you have records at BT office and TMA office for houses only and not the plots. Third place can be the bank if you want to get some bank loan.

2. Mr. Azad had a point that if you have possession of ur plot, have built a house on it and living there then no one can take this property from you.

3. In the end i think, if something goes wrong, then sale/purchase of property will slow down for a while until things get clear in public opinion.

4. Quality of services might also be affected until BT management again gain strength or people in BT will make some organisation and run it by themselves. I know that there is already one small group of people in BT who elect their general secretary and other positions in the group.

5. I really dont know if Mr. Zardari or any other political force in government takes over the BT office and records then what will they do with it. How the transfers will be done, by patwari or who??? Just look what happened to Khanani and Kalia and where all this money is gone??

Well readers, I am not preaching here but i am discussing/addressing the negative points of BT which were told to me by various property dealers and some of those were true by the way...but not all.

Ashraf Sb, Before buying my plot, i found out that Bahria town is approved by TMA not LDA. NFCII behind BT is now approved by LDA so technically speaking BT should be approved by LDA as well. It would be a positve step and will improve the credibility of BT.

This is all what i think...if someone has better information, he is welcome to share. Too much discssion on this topic might give impression that we are lobbying against BT soI dont want to write a lot on this bcoz i dont want to create problems for the management of this forum.

Thank you very much to all...Ahmad Raza

Azad K replied on Saturday, January 9, 2010 01:20 AM PST

Mr Hussain Kaisrani thank you for your comments although I am not an expert.

Mr Raza nobody has a crystal ball and as Saqib has rightly stated that there is always a risk in business and
investment. I cannot make your decision for you, I cannot give you all the information that you need. The world is imperfect and we must do the best that we can. I can say that the standards of schemes are generally increasing as people have or will become acustomed to the best services so I don't think that things will generally get worse but I think schemes will generally improve in the future.

You need to decide a) what is your goal or objective b) what options do you have c) which is the best option keeping in mind your goals.

Nobody needs to tell you what grounds to invest in. The ground for investment should always be the return on capital in a given timeframe.If everybody knew where they can get the best return on their money and without taking any risk then we would all be very rich. If you don't know where to get the best returns then you have to go for the option that you would feel comfortable with, assuming that your investment does badly.

Azad K replied on Saturday, January 9, 2010 03:23 AM PST

Regarding your last post Mr Raza, in my mind the following things would happen in your given scenarios.

a) Riaz Malik dies. His son is taking an active role in the management of the company and it has a strong top management that will still be in place and remain.

b) Riaz Malik goes to jail. His son is taking an active role in the management of the company and it has a strong top management that will still be in place and remain.

c) Inheritance of
Bahria following the demise of Riaz Malik. A person like Riaz Malik should be smart enough to leave behind a will and to groom the future leadership of the company. Bahria will still remain and so will the management, who has what shareholding in the company after Riaz Malik's death is irelevant to us.

Another scenario that you did not mention is what would happen if Bahria Town becomes bankrupt or ceases to trade. The plot and houses on the ground will still remain, the infrastructure will still remain. Somebody else may come in and acquire Bahria or administer it or its assets or the housing schemes. The only people to suffer may be owners of files where development hasn't taken place, but hopefully they should still own the land in question as Bahria cannot run away with the land unless Bahria has sold more files than it has land.

Sometimes there is no right or wrong investment decision but just what you feel comfortable in investing in, or if not a investment then where you feel comfortable living and what best matches your criteria.

Visitor replied on Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:50 PM PST

Mr Azad K. Thanks for sharing your knowledge of analyzing the situation on the basis of available information while keeping in view the objectives/goals. I do agree that in each case you can't totally eliminate the risk but one may choose the way with minimum risk. Wishing you more wisdom, happiness and sucessess.

Mr Ahmad Raza. Definitely your post on the issue has generated many valuable information for the visitors of this site including me. Hope all of your presumptions are answered by the learned friends including Mr Azad K. Wish you best of luck.


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